blog post Driving around with Rae Spoon

Excited for this show. Rae, if you're reading--thanks so much for posting your I Wanna Dance With Somebody cover the other day. It was a beautiful tribute.

Oh hey, I just noticed the comment numbers are back.

Hi Lisa!

@EP - hi!

@AofA #4 - If you hit Update Comments, after your post, any subsequently added comments are missing comment #s. Until you post a comment again.

Yes, AoA, but it bugs upon Updating of Comments. Then resets when you post (or, I read earlier, refresh the page)

Obviously it's not just "they", it's also "their" and "them" as appropriate. So your example would be "They eat their soup."

Here's some links, if still in doubt - and as Lisa says they will discuss it in the interview.

http://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/singular-they-and-the-many-reasons-why-its-correct/

http://robotics.caltech.edu/~mason/ramblings/singularThey.html

great idea to suggest the Trans 101!

Tanya Davis: Why yes, I will listen to this again, thank you!

@Lisa RE: New Brunswick Frenglish

The New Brunswick "Frenglish" you speak of has an official name: Chiac (she-AHCK)

Check it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiac

hipped hop, people do not remake language, and then pressure people to use it; that's simply weird. It is not only not important for the world to use my own peculiarities, it is not something to be expected.

If people want to desexify language, there is already a genderless set: it, and its.

Look at Benoit there eating its soup with a spork. It loves that soup!

My point being that people may be referred to in a sexless, or genderless way, but they can't be plural. Except for royalty in self-reference (others don't even refer to the monarch in plural).

I think that what you refer to is wishful thinking that won't pass muster. Won't stick

When speaking to me, please but THE infront of my name.  The daa1982 has spoken.

Yes, I did. Mercy.

Hot Panda... havent heard this in a long time!

This is from Hot Panda`s first album or EP, right! I used to listen to this album all the time. Daily, for a while.

I enjoy a good hot sauce...I need to get Hot Pandas

You gotta see Hot Panda play live, to get the full benefit! Tho some people love em and some don`t.

I hope Rae isn't insulted being referred to as "he"!!!

He asked for it for years!

@MC - Yes, it does.

Lisa, thanks so much for getting Rae on the show! Huuuuuge fan!

No more live country songs from Rae Spoon? Say it ain't so! I loved the show at Tranzac last year, but White Hearse Comes Rolling would have been amazing! Now I think I know what the song refers to... 

FYI - In Ottawa-Gatineau we refer to the linguistic hybrid with the term "Franglais". 

I think Hot Panda has a new album out or will soon.

http://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/singular-they-and-the-many-reasons-why-its-correct/

That one speaks of using "they" in other ways, to encompass multiple people represented by a singular word.

It doesn't work for "Rae Spoon, they really like their sandwich" and they don't attempt anything close.

This is a great interview!

hipped hop, I understand but: what I'm going for is if one's trying to change the language, you've got to change it for everyone. If "it" were used for everyone, any nasty association with dehumanising transgender people would be non-existent.

@Benoit, well I kinda hate to hijack the blog, not that I wouldn't welcome other thoughts/perspectives.

Blog, wanna play grammar games?

@Yort, sure

Thanks!  I like it! :)

Re. gender and pronouns, anyone read Marge Piercy's Woman on the Edge of Time?

In a utopian society, "per" is used as a genderless pronoun. GREAT novel, by the way.

So, if `we`re` the basement what`s the new site and people using it? Upstairs or the living room or.....? 

I've said it before, Shotgunning is one of my favourite features!

I have seen Rae Spoon once, and he was simply hilarious, that did not really come across in this more intimate interview.  He's playing here in a couple weeks at a gay bar that I am not sure I'd feel to comfortable in. We will see.

I love the basement.  I have written Feedback a couple of times saying how much I have loved the colours and graphics in the last year. The penthouse will be around long enough, I am staying down here as long as it's open.

"They" works for me. I would have no problem using it instead of "he/she" and I certainly would not want to be referred to as "it" transgender or not.

@musicjoy3 I think they are in the parlor

it does make it, you're just refusing to see it. but that's understandable, trans stuff can be challenging for heteronormative people, and as Rae indicated in the interview, it is becoming progressively more understood. as the years go by and there is more social and media exposure to non gender-conforming people, eventually using "they" for a known single person will be as normative as it curently is to refer to a single unknown person.

@musicjoy3 I've been getting back into SNL - I hadn't watched it in years.  The Piers Morgan and Michael Cera impersonations were really great, Nic Cage appearing too.  The Eastwood ads cracked me up too with the pants getting higher and you were never sure what he was advertising!  Ah, good times.

I'm considering it, they can be my "beard"!

Look, DarkSiders! We Can Have Headlines On Our Posts Up Here Too!______________________________

Check it!

Ha ha, Benoit. 61. That`s pretty good! White Site. I like that.

Dorianne, please! Answer the question! How can 'they' be used? Your two links did not indicate how that plural gets used, outside of those referential singular-for-plural cases!

And don't judge what I see or not, and especially not my motivations (refuse to see!)!!! That is not only goddamned insulting, but also inaccurate. I've worked with English and French for years and years! It's not badwill I'm showing, it's real objections I'm raising. That's all. Have seen Rae Spoon in person 6-8 times... Spoken to him many times.

So please, supply answers instead of attempting to characterise me negatively.

I think Grant's show missed out on this, because this blog discussion strikes me as what it really means to be Canadian.

PeanutButter, I agree. All those impersonations were so funny and so well done! It was a great, great episode. I did not expect Zooey Deschanel to be that good of an actor and comedian!!! And good dancer, too, in the French skit. And oh man, Clint Eastwood`s pants!

As good, almost, as when Justin Timberlake guest hosts SNL and he is one of the best!I liked at the end of the show when she said very heartily `this is the best day of my life!` 

I like the term "penthouse" (as The RadioHead used) for the new white site.

cathyort, just answered. Let me now if not received...

Hello everyone.

@yort: Is that home-made poutine?

hey Rae! looking forward to your upcoming visit to SSM!

@ian, how are you, where have you been, we missed you (will that do)

hipped @ 69

A name change is one thing, inventing a grammar that 'nobody knows' and expecting people to use your grammar, that's pushing it too far. I understand the problem with "it" although it's not only for inanimate things, but also for quite intelligent animals. But I understand, I was just saying that a genderless mode also exists.

As for your question "If you had a friend who preferred "zhe" or another pronoun like that, would you refuse to use it?", the probable answer is that it would be not used far more often than the reverse. We speak without thinking, when we're not feeling constrained.

I'm a believer not in a lack of diversity, but in the individual accommodating themselves (see? that's an acceptable them  for him or her!!!) to the many, and not in expecting the many to respect their every unusual preferences.

In the end, Rae Spoon shows the real, pragmatic attitude: putting up graciously and patiently with being called he, she, and with being thought a boy, a gay guy, or what's closer to his reality, a transgendered woman. And you know, when around him, the subject NEVER comes up. People just talk to him, and he to the people. Just as it should be.

(rant over)

@garfielduk I've been busy with stuff and listening, just not been commenting.

:: hugs self ::

Thanks!

@Lisa:

Hieroglyphics is released on a 7" single tomorrow.

No, Lisa, one may change a word, a title like Ms, but grammar changes only under pressure of the people in general. Not by diktat.

The split infinitive is agreed to now because everybody was doing it.

Referring to a single person as "they", except in the manners explained and shown above, will work only if people in general do it a lot. And they won't, because it seeds confusion: "they" refers to many people.

It's not what I want that counts, it's what the people will say and write. And it's not happening right now, except, as Rae said, in his LGBT community in Montreal.

In the end what I'm saying is: it won't catch on.

A final thought: If I wanted to introduce a special pronoun for use with me, people would laugh; if I insisted, they would tell me to fuck off.

That voice over just now, "We are going to have a commerical. . . " is  just simply horrible.  My gosh, makes Radio3 seem so very amateurish.  Digging up any of those old bits, like the "French medival dance" should NOT have been resurected.  Fine when R3 started, but not now.

Thanks for the feedback. Will pass along.

Okay, so it seems the disagreement isn’t so much about the grammar as about what’s “pushing it too far” and how what you refer to as “unusual preferences” should be dealt with. I mean, many people think that referring to trans people as “he” or “she” as they identify is an unusual preference, and refuse to do it. But it’s certainly become more accepted, and trans people are receiving more respect. I get the skepticism over whether “they” could take hold in the same way, but it’s certainly not impossible. Most people in this thread have respected Rae’s preference for it.

Also, I have no idea if Rae identifies as either sex, but I’m pretty much 100% sure they wouldn’t identify as a trans woman, who is a woman who was assigned male at birth.

We all want R3 to succeed and grow and be the showpiece (and show place) for all of the Canadian Independent music we love, but the new voice overs are a step backward, especially with those old tags - all of them.  To me, this is a major programming stumble that R3 should ditch ASAP.  Hardly the image of the increasingly polished professional station system that I think you'd want.

And frankly, I think that the v/o announcer doesn't have a strong presence in her voice and tone, and it has nothing to do with gender. 

Just as I used "Dear Benoit" instead of @Benoit when addressing you, because I knew you preferred it when with everyone else @ was common and understood. So if Rae wants to be they, then I am fine with that.

May make you smile, makes me grimmace.  I have heard that bit, used by Craig Norris for years in his old breaks.  Got old.  Is old.  To me, it ran its course when R3 was a small little corner of the web when it was trying to find its way.  But now, Radio3 is trying to be bigger and better, and to me, is counter productive. 

Tell me, if you heard that five times a day, every day, would it get old?

Re: Gender in genderal (PUNNED!)

There are many cultures who identify more than two genders.

What pronoun would be used in these situations?

"Societies provide a social landscape along with the symbols or codes through which a person's place on teh landscape is convered to others. For individuals, these symbols or codes serve as toolboxes from which to fasion an identity. Societies may vary in the extent to which people are allowed to negotiate their place on the landscape, but all allow people some leeway.

Language...is one of the tools that people have to signal how they want to be placed in society."

Summary: You use the terms available to you to form your own identity.

By refusing to use the terms an individual requests you are stripping them of their identity and applying your own.

But darbar, you don't seem to realise that it's not at all the same thing:

a) An address (Mr, Miss), or calling someone Liz or NO, only Elizabeth, that's fine and personal. That is normal. (But as Lisa pointed out, even something as banal as "Ms." an address for all, didn't!)

b) Somehow requiring other people to change grammar when referring to you is quite another. For one thing, it necessitates knowing the person's sex life (haha) in advance; secondly, changes in grammar occur when the people in general do it, and the people in general MAY do it when it's applied to everyone. It is ridiculous (IMO) to expect a grammar change to even make any headway, let alone to stick, if it's merely for adressing members of one or another subgroup.

c) Moreover, I think it is preferable to avoiding ghettoising people with special talk around them. The best thing to do is to speak with any person normally as though they were a person -- which they are. And you know, Rae doesn't flinch when referred to as "him" -- as he requested for years -- nor when referred to as "her".

@flagpole music, I'm not an expos fan but it's still a shame,  our part time dog is going to the vets on Wednesday to have a malignant lump removed.

But Benoit, they may not be the same and you don't seem to realize I don't care. :) I am not stuck on rules of grammar. I am just saying that once I know what someone prefers, I will use it. I won't be calling anyone else they unless I know that is what they prefer. I do use Ms. for every woman over 20 unless I know that they would rather be called Mrs. I tell people that I prefer Ms. myself and hope that they humour me and use that for me as well.

All I am saying is that if someone asks me to, I try to respect that.

There are other blogs, associated with streams? Where?

http://music.cbc.ca/genres/Classical

http://music.cbc.ca/genres/Rock

http://music.cbc.ca/genres/Pop

http://music.cbc.ca/genres/Country

http://music.cbc.ca/genres/Jazz

http://music.cbc.ca/genres/Blues

http://music.cbc.ca/genres/Hip-Hop

http://music.cbc.ca/genres/Singer-Songwriter

http://music.cbc.ca/genres/RB-Soul

http://music.cbc.ca/genres/Electronic

http://music.cbc.ca/genres/World

Dorianne, maybe your 123 is addressed to me. (There is no heading on the White Site).

All the best of luck with having it accepted and used. I remain unconvinced, but time will tell.

(It also remains that Rae Spoon specifically asked to be referred to in the masculine for years and years and years.)

Off-topic

Has anyone devised a means of blocking the 'What ______ thinks I do' meme?

Sick of it almost as soon as it started.

Ya, but zamm, groups like that often go too far: some guy lost a reporter's job over "niggardly", in the U.S. (and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with Negro, or Black -- African-Americans say "black" about the third time themselves, after two "A-A"s, when it's gotten awkward, and don't ever hesitate to speak of "Whites".

As with the handicapped, they're not really big on not being called that -- iot's workers who work with them who often insist the most on "handi-capable" or any number of euphemisms.

I'm not one for being disrespectful, but geez, words are there to be used, and it's not the word that hurts* -- it's the bad attitude behind it, if it's there.

*There are exceptions: "nigger" is never popular in a "white" mouth -- but of course it's o.k. among blacks! as a term of endearment! Same blacks as talk about biatches...

i like words.

Here's the thing about "niggardly": there are a wealth of other words that suit that purpose quite well. Really, the only reason to use "niggardly" in particular is to point out to others "you shouldn't be offended!" and be smug when they look at you funny.

Words still do hurt. When a word is used by a sizable population of people to demean others, it still definitely hurts. There's stil a sizable number of people who use "Negro" with the implication that the person in question is somehow below them, and by and large it's just not how people self-identify. There's also the historical power systems in place behind that and the n-word, and so yeah, there's a huge difference between somebody inside the community using it and a white person doing so.

We could get into a huge discussion about privilege about this, but even now I'm getting a little out of my depth.

@ Benoit, corporations are people too, at least according to Mitt Romney(R).

@Yort, I love language and linguistics too

thanks, Yort. love that link. i also love linguistics.

Al Tuck

This song is so much more enjoyable than 'Slappy McCreepington'.

@Zammie [130]

I guess we have the final word on that, eh?

~~~~~

138 ---> Don't remind me of that piece of non-thinking! My dad and I are aghast.

Relate that to the SuperPac ruling!

#146 (!)

@Lisa

what?

@Russ #146, Nice tildes!

@Yort, It's our "part time" dog, we get him alternate weeks

Re: Dogs being chick magnets

It's true. We have to brush them off before going into the house. It's a real pain. Eventually you get too many of them lying around and you have to get a special permit to dispose of them.

He had a habit of standing over the stairs with his head through the railing and dropping a ball on your head as you walked down stairs

Magnetic Dogs?

How about Atomic Dogs?

"t's not the word that hurts* -- it's the bad attitude behind it" - and by refusing to use the word the person prefers you are displaying a very bad attitude indeed.

@Dorianne

Well put. 'Society isn't going to do it so why should I?' is a terrible defence.

@Lisa, false start? what happen?

Born Gold

That song is supposed to sound like it's been put through a blender, right? My computer didn't just die on me?

Born Gold is the successor to Gobble Gobble. I'm looking forward to seeing them at the Sheep in a while.

g'night all

Dorianne, Benoit is much too chivalrous in real life to stumble awkwardly on his words, he'd phrase in ways that wouldn't even broach the subject. The printed word, however, is much less forgiving. There are rules of grammar at stake. This is the sticking point.

Thanks for your input on the subject! Interesting stuff to think about...

@ Garf, goodnight!

Cheers, Russ!