blog post POLL: Should CBC Radio 3 Play International Artists?

That's good. :) Phew.

Sorry, but the reasons listed for adding the 15% international content seem awfully weak. There is SO much great Canadian music that you could never get around to playing -- why dilute it with international stuff?

The only way I could see it working is if the international content was truly international. I don't hate the U.S., but their content dominates everywhere else already. If this meant we'd hear interesting (and obscure) stuff from other continents that we otherwise wouldn't find elsewhere, I guess I'd be ok with it. If it just means you want to feature Wilco or whatever, forget it.

I like the idea of thinking about Radio 3 as a Canadian curator of great music: Canadians viewpoint on the world's independent music. So that would likely involve an extensive collection of Canadian content - with some external coverage on what is going on out there in the world. Framing that global content: why we should care, how it may influence us or the bands we love. I welcome it, as long as it's done intelligently and thoughtfully.

I think it's important to clear something up.

CBC has never been about exclusively Canadian content.

When CBC Radio 3 first started, it played international content. Same went for CBC's ZeD.

The argument for occasionally featuring international content is so that Canadian culture can be placed in context of what's happening around the world. This is a potentially important editorial tool.

If the choice is made to never play other non-cancon, the agreements to allow this will never be created. That means not so much as a single piece of non-cancon can ever be played. No matter how relevant it is.

JP
Blog Editor

Being a former Sirius subscriber who had to cancel for economic reasons and now listens on the web, I have experience listening to both.

For what it's worth, R3 has introduced me to a number of Canadian artists that I wasn't familiar with, and consequently sought out precisely because I heard them on R3. But without a single exception that I can recall, the international music I heard on R3-Sirius was stuff I was already familiar with - Decemberists, Tom Waits, Portishead, Nick Cave, etc. I mean, I love all that stuff, of course - but I already have it on my MP3 drive.

What would be much more interesting, at least to me, would be if R3 were to build relationships with international equivalents such as BBC 6, Triple J in Australia, KEXP or WOXY or The Current in the US, etc., to help promote newer music that I might not already know. For example, you could have DJs from the other services pick a weekly "cool new track from my country" that R3 will put into rotation (and, of course, an R3 host would do the same for them.)

If that kind of thing were done, I'd support 85/15. But if the international content is going to just be songs I already have on my hard drive anyway by artists who are already established International Alt-Rawk Stars, then go for the all-Cancon. I loved "Third" as much as everybody else did - but it's not what I come to you guys for.

Like it or not, you have a platform that gives a podium to our music. The more that it stays that way the more it gives credence for Canadians to make good music!

I voted No, stay Canadian. Though I don't mind a little non canadian content, I wouldn't want a hard number like 15%. Though more then anything, stay indie.

Hallelujah! Tell it on the mountaintop!

Some non-canadian content wouldn't be so bad. It's not going to hurt any Canadian ears or artists to have music made outside of our borders played occasionally. I can see the point about Peaches above - I mean, I'm sure there are some really interesting and progressive music scenes that we have no idea about. Hearing this music enables us to be influenced by a wider range of cultures in our listening and/or songwriting habits. To demand only Canadian artists be played here smacks of insecurity. Aren't we better than that?

Also when I say that "it's not even something that should have been seriously considered" I mean that I think there were many people who were sure that R3 understood it's audience, the community it was a part of and it's role within that community. Just by asking the question R3 has caused doubts about all of those assumptions. Radio 3 should have known it's audience well enough to know what the reaction would be.

Should we open the Polaris Prize to International Artist, so that when our Canadian ones are recognized, it makes that more relevant?

this has been really interesting to read, lots of good points.

personally, i think we should keep it 100% canadian. the number of artists i have gotten into solely because of R3 is huge. some of them have been right in my own backyard. what R3 is doing right now is unique and of excellent quality. it's what makes it different from other streams (aaand the hosts and lovely online community). i think it helps some great artists who might not be getting play elsewhere get heard by the right people, the people who will go to their shows and buy their albums hopefully.

so that's my vote, keep it canadian. there's a huge pool of quality music out there in this country, no need to be looking elsewhere:)

Hi all,
I'm on board with all those who are saying keep it 100%. When I tell people what I'm listening to, I like that it can be said that it is all Canadian. Less cool to say 'it's mostly Canadian.'

hmm, i think i MAY be disagreeing with many of my friends here on the blog.

this is the only station i listen to, i'll admit it. i was delighted to find it, and get exposed to a whole lot of new music, and delighted that it was all Canadian, and often small/obscure Canadian acts. i am fully aware that there are still many, many, MANY more great Canadian Indie bands that DON'T get airplay here, even though they are on NMC and radio-worthy. like some others have said, i think if it were feasible to get more of these Canadian bands on the playlist/rotation meaning less repetition, i'd be all for it (i recognize that that is difficult).

but, it occurred to me a few months into listening to R3 that if there is this much great Canadian music I hadn't heard before, there must be an equal amount from other countries... and that likely i was missing out on a whole lot of other good music by only listening to R3. didn't do anything about it, e.g. seeking out other stations. so the idea of a bit of non-Canadian music getting thrown in around the edges, especially in the context of Canadian music, would be just fine with me, I think.

don't necessarily like the idea of a 15% non-Canadian guarantee. i don't like the idea that the change might mean less diversity of Canadian bands. i don't like the idea of a slippery slope. again, like others, i wouldn't necessarily want to be hearing the bigger international indie bands we already know... but getting to discover ones I wouldn't otherwise, like what R3 already does for me for Canadian music, I'd be for it.

mmm, Julie Doiron just sang me a song about New Brunswick. wouldn't want to lose that kind of Cancon.

I think a once a day, international artists-only show is the solution here. Maybe an hour long show with only international artists could actually be really neat!

They talked about it yesterday - it's all the time or none at all. Personally, Bio Spice, I know there is other music out there in the world and there are 1,000 places where I can hear it - but R3 is really the ONLY place where I can hear the music they play (other than a few University radio shows.)

So, I'm pretty adamant in the 'none at all' camp.

Yes, it would always be in the rotation. John was giving one possible example of how it might be worked in. Another fear that I have is that we would end up with some of the same type of strained "Canadian Connections" that you get sometimes on CBC news.

"So and so once said that he liked Montreal" If this goes forward I don't want any attempt made to explain how they are connected to Canada - if you have to explain, they're not.

The bottom line for me though is 15% less air time for Canadian musicians who don't get much to begin with.

I just doubt that the potential gains that would come from playing "international artists" (and when we say "international," we mean primarily American, don't we?) would outweigh the dilution of the "100% Canadian" brand.

I'm not making this argument based on an emotional connection to having an all-Canadian music station. Rather, I just think from a practical business standpoint of attracting listeners, it just wouldn't be worth it.

If Canadian culture is placed in context to what's happening around the world then I'd say "bring it on"!

Radio 3 has introduced me to so many great Canadian musicians over the past two years; many of which I have enjoyed seeing play live in the US. As of late, I'm impressed with the percentage of Canadian musicians who play at US festivals in comparison to other countries. Many of the folks in attendance at these shows were not from Canada and seemed to rock-out equally as hard as their Canadian comrades in the audience.

I think causiously choosing international indi musicians who have some kind of relation to Canada will help expose us to others around the world.

That being said, my expectation would be to avoid bands who are already well known and internationally recognized on large scale (ie played on main stream radio in North America). I also think capping the amount of content at 15% would the responsible thing to do.

The 'context" thing is bunk - it'll end up being those obscure 'maple syrup' connections : 'The drummer's sister is married to a Canadian'

I love this station - I think it would break my heart just a little bit to change it by adding international artists!

Canadian indie music needs an uncompromising forum like R3 to be showcased in. As other have said, 15% international artists means 15% less playtime for worthy Canadian acts.

I think many of the Canadian listenerss also count on this station to re-connect with our culture by discovering the awesomeness of our indie rock scene. I know I had it playing regularly while living overseas. I tune in because I want to hear Canada.

The folks who want international music will go to international stations because such stations will invariably do it better. Those stations have all day to suit international tastes, instead of a 15%, inevitibly superficial sampling.

A 15% cut won't satisfy those kinds of listeners, but it will alienate the ones who came for Canadian music.

Worse, and most importantlyI think, it sends the message that Canadian music just isn't good enough. We have to coax people to listen by giving them a break from Canadian artists.

I wouldn't want to suggest that folks should get all of their musical satisfaction just from Canadian artists - we can and should explore other sounds.

But R3's response to that reality has to respect that diversity of tastes rather than be frightened by it.

Like others have said: when we're in the mood for international artists, we know where to find it. And when we want to fill up on Canadian sounds, we shouldn't have to worry about R3 pandering to a lower global denominator.

Keep R3 Canadian!! It's all we've got and we deserve it!

It would also add to that school of criticism of the CBC that says "Why are we paying for a national public broadcaster that plays International content available in scores of other places" - On CBC Television for example when the financial crisis hit this year there were alot of people who said "Why do we need to pay for a national public broadcaster that plays Wheel of Fortune and the Simpsons when we can get those without the CBC".

Playing international artists would open R3 up to the same criticism.

You lost me at "will continue to fuel our mediocrity" - there is nothing mediocre about what gets played on Radio 3. The 15% of Canadian music that would get cut from the playlist isn't mediocre.

"I see this a free trade (NAFTA aside)." That same argument could be used to include 90% foreign content. It could be used to include classical, jazz and hymns.

There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with having a station devoted exclusively to Canadian indie music - especially when there is more good Canadian indie music than will fit in a 24 hour playlist.

Far from swaying me, (or even making me think you have a good point, or an interesting perspective on the situation) you're points have irritated me (a bit) and strengthened my resolve - no international stuff on Radio 3.

I would like to point you to maybe read the original blog post for Grant's show and the resulting comments there. I believe I was not the only one to the argument that the repetition complaint will not be affected by adding international artists. There are more than enough artists to fill the air time, it's just that there isn't too much coordination between shows.

I, like Justin, feel a little annoyed at your argument as it shows to me that you haven't read the original conversation on the subject. Plus, for me, bringing up NAFTA in a positive light is the last thing that's gonna sway me, I'm sure I'm not the only one with similar views on NAFTA :P

Or thinking small, it's about having the station we, as listeners, want and that is a all Canadian, all the time station. I'm firmly convinced that if R3 goes international that the number of listeners will go down - which kinda collides with the whole 'Think Big' thing.

There’s nothing wrong with this poll. It is what is says it is, an informal blog poll.


After giving this some thought, here’s what I think in more detail. I favour keeping the regular rotation 100% culturally Canadian, (but not necessarily Canadian by the Cancon rules, more on this later). I’m finding that I really like R3’s identity as an all Canadian station. I do feel proud of that, especially when I’m sitting back listening and being amazed that all this great music is Canadian, all of it. I feel good about R3 being all Canadian with respect to it being taxpayer funded as well. For me it just feels right that the regular rotation should be 100% culturally Canadian.

However, being culturally Canadian does not necessarily mean being Canadian by the strict Cancon rules. Take the Neko Case example to start with. Neko’s career started and was based in Canada for many years. She played in Cub and Maow, and then she toured Canada with Neko Case & Her Boyfriends. At about the same time The New Pornographers started recording. She’s also collaborated with The Sadies and Carolyn Mark. Even after the Canadian government kicked her out after her student visa finally expired she maintained these relationships and continued to tour Canada regularly. Even her current US based band is half Canadian. She also records her albums in Canada, and I could go on. Neko Case has been a very important member of the Canadian music community for about 15 years, but she’s not a Canadian citizen and therefore is not technically Cancon. She is significantly culturally Canadian, however, and I very much think she should be in regular rotation on R3.

The next category might be defined by someone like Elvis Costello. He’s is clearly a British artist and a very culturally British artist as well, but he’s been married to Diana Krall for many years now, and their primary residence is in Vancouver, and they have a couple of Canadian kids too. Given all this, at what point do we open our arms and welcome someone like Elvis Costello into our Canadian mosaic? Yes, he’s not really culturally Canadian, yet, but he’s moved here and made a pretty big commitment to our country and a few of our fellow Canadians, and don’t we accept thousands of other people who do this every year? There are other people who might fit into this category as well. I don’t know their current citizenship status but Ellen McIlwaine and the late Billy Cowsill are two more who this might apply to as well. Should music from artists like this be allowed in regular rotation on R3? I think it should. If you’ve lived in Canada for a number of years and you’ve made a significant commitment to the Canadian music scene then I think you you’re culturally Canadian enough. You’re culturally Canadian enough for me anyway.

Then there is the issue of cover songs. If the White Stripes cover a Tegan and Sara song should that be allowed on R3? It’s definitely an interesting and relevant news item, and I would like to hear the song on R3 in conjunction with a news item on it, but I don’t think I would want it as a regular rotation song.

In general I think non-Canadian songs should be on R3 as part of news items, but not in the regular rotation. As another example, Death Cab for Cutie is an American band but they started out in Bellingham Washington which is almost a suburb of Vancouver. With the drinking age in the US being 21 I’m sure they spent a lot of time in Vancouver bars watching bands, and I know they played Vancouver bars as well. I think it would be interesting to hear an interview with them about that, and to hear a song that might be connected to Vancouver in some way, but I wouldn’t favour having that song in the regular rotation.

With respect to some of the concerns that have been raised, I hear as a big part of JB’s concerns a concern about a slippery slope. In the Canadian media in general we’ve seen in a lot slippage toward Americanization. In the sports media you see prominent news outlets featuring the NFL and MLB over Canadian sports. On television you see even the CBC favouring American television, or Canadian copies of American television, over distinctly Canadian programming, so in the context of the Canadian media in general I think JB’s concerns are very valid and very serious. JB has said that he would like to hear Neko Case on R3 so he favours some degree of technically international content as well, but to address the slippery slope concerns I would suggest that clear, publically stated, rules be made with respect to international content on R3. And as stated above, my personal preference is for the regular rotation to be 100% culturally Canadian, which could included some technically non-Canadian artists, and for songs by international artists to be allowed in conjunction with news items.

Any thoughts on all this JB?

I will say this, it doesn't really matter. Because they've dedicated a show, a post and a poll to this. They may have opinions as to how they want this to go. But I honestly believe if they felt they knew better than their audience the answer to the question, they would not have devoted this much time, space and energy to engaging us to share our feelings and vote on an answer.

With Grant, his job is to generate discussion. He doesn't take sides so much as he play's the devil's advocate to make sure that all angles get considered. If he says, "what about the the thinking that…", its to get dialogue going on that point - not that it's his point.

It's a strange sentiment when we, well a lot of us here, come because of his impassioned nationalism, especially as it relates to our music and culture, and then we feel like he's taken a side and trying to steer his own agenda.

I didn't have the chance to listen to any of the Friday show, but I have read all of the comments from the blog post, here and there, and I feel I have a pretty good lock on the guy, as well as many of the other staff. I think we're doing a disservice to Radio3 and ourselves if this spins off into an argument that tries to suggest that Radio3 (the royal sense) is blowing smoke and putting up mirrors to push through a predetermined notion.

They care about your opinion as much, if not more than yours.

I certainly came away from Friday's show with the impression that Grant was on a particular side of this, if he says he wasn't fine. I would suggest though to anyone at R3 who does feel that they 'need' 15% international content that working for Radio 3, in any capacity, is one of the most coveted positions in this country (among audiophiles anyway) and it's not because of the international content. If you feel the need to play international you might try any other radio station in Canada and the world because R3 is the only place where this would be an issue.

Like I said above, if he says he wasn't on a particular side that's fine. Which side, if any, Grant is on really isn't that important.

I think, if kept to a minimum - i like the 85/15 split - having some internation sounds mixed in is good for perspective. We are not a country in a bubble. I wholly support Canadian music, always have, always will. But knowing and hearing Grizzly Bear, Passion Pit or St. Vincent alongside BSS and Howie Beck would be a good thing.

As much as all of us committed listeners would like to see just Canadian content, it may be a matter of making Radio3 as marketable as possible to ensure that it survives through the recession and that I can continue to bring Canadian artists to the forefront. This definitely means having to make the switch to 15% international.

It is not about revenue. Sirius is on its deathbed and Radio 3 doesn't do ads so adding international acts does not increase revenue.

As for international acts not getting airplay - there are 10,000 (give or take) radio stations that play them. There are maybe 100 that play any Canadian indie artists (beyond Feist and Arcade Fire) and there is ONE exclusively dedicated to Canadian Indie. You're suggesting there should be none.

They've already made it clear that 15% is a hard number, not max. 15% in every hour or nothing.

Sirius is half owned by the CBC and it is dying. Sirius has never turned a profit and never will. Sirius/XM in the states is on the verge of bankruptcy

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/06/06/on-the-brink-sirius-satellite-radio/

and once it's gone Sirius Canada will follow shortly after it (most of the programming comes from the US anyway). So a larger audience does not mean more revenue.

Also, as part of the CBC, Radio 3 cannot take donations. So, what this boils down to really is 15% less air time for Canadian artists and (for me) the death of Radio 3 as Radio 3. If international acts are added it will become just another web radio station.

Have they really said that 15% is a hard number? The poll gives two options but I’m assuming that there are other possibilities in between the two endpoints.

I did catch the part about not being able to do an international hour, because limits are set by the hour and that would exceed the 15% per hour limit, but I had been assuming that the 15% per hour was a maximum and that there was no minimum associated with it. In other words, I assumed that on Sirius R3 could play up to 15% international content but that anything less than that was fine. Have I got this wrong?

Well, that’s unfortunate. I think we both agree that there are specific artists and songs that are technically international content but that are either culturally Canadian or culturally relevant to Canadians, and that it would be nice to be able to play them on R3. However, I don’t think having a random Vampire Weekend or Animal Collective song thrown into the mix every hour fits with the identity and sense of community that R3 has built.

Hi everyone,

I just want to thank all of you who have spent so much time and voiced so many well-thought out opinions about this. I can't tell you how much we appreciate it - it would be foolish of us to make any decision this big without asking for your input .

You have delivered a lot of strong opinions on both sides of the argument that will make our decision making process smarter and more effective, regardless of what we decide.

To clear one thing up - 85 / 15% is our minimum license condition on Sirius. There is no reason why we could not decide to play 90 / 10, 95 / 5, or 99/ 1. The options for us are 85/15 up to 100/0 and anything in between. (although I should say that doing an 'international hour' probably doesn't make a lot of sense strategically for us)

We will be taking ALL of your thoughts into account as we cocoon & deliberate over this decision. I hope you all know that regardless of what side of the debate you're on, we will be trying to make the decision that best enables us to promote and support Canadian music.

Thank you again for all your time and thoughts. Radio 3 wouldn't be Radio 3 without your passion and dedication to the cause!

Steve

Steve Pratt
Director, CBC Radio 3

Thanks for the clarification. I still say 100% Canadian. There is no other international artist I would be happy about hearing on R3 and I don't see the point in R3 changing it's licensing (or whatever) for a single artist. I'd rather just see that hole closed.

I also agree with Bison - if it is possible to have any stations that are 100% anything then there is nothing wrong with a 100% Canadian channel. Otherwise let's have 10% Canadian indie on the sports channel.

I think the beauty of Canadian music is that it already has an international feel.
We promote multiculturalism and diversity in our country, so why not in the music we listen to? BUT the ratio needs to stay at what is recomended. Just a taste of international artists, keep it HEAVILY Canadian.

Equally important as a listener of R3 is quality of the music and the 100% Canadian content. If either were lost I would be lost also. I need to know that what I'm listening to is CanCon and am absolutely against mixing in international content. But, if international music is added to programing, it must be kept as a seperate program where all songs on that specific program are international and I know it. It should also be music not played on mainstream radio. I'm not here for mainstream. Thanks for opening for discussion.

Add more new Canadian bands or bring some of our old Canadian favourites back to the rotation, no international stuff.

I'll add to the voices here that would support 15 percent international content if it was composed of music as unexplored and imaginative as that which defines CBC Radio 3's Canadian content.

Bring on the outsiders, just make sure it's folks we don't already invite to our house parties.